John Quincy Adams Digital Diary

25. V: I gave up this morning to the business of the day, and having a variety of Subjects upon which I wished to confer with Lord Castlereagh, I made a minute of the principal points to be borne in mind—classing them under ten different heads; and to preserve the order of them, arranged them alphabetically— Fixing upon a word which would immediately remind me of the whole subject— The initials of the word proceeding successively from A. to J— This was an application of the Principles of a technical memory which I had never made before, and which for a first attempt succeeded, not completely; but beyond my expectation— I have often experienced inconvenience in conferences of this kind, by forgetting while engaged in the conversation upon some of the topics, for which I had proposed the interview, others perhaps of equal importance; or at least observations that before the meeting, I had intended to make, and which after the meeting I regretted to have omitted. I did not entirely escape the second of these maladdresses, but had less of it than I have often experienced; and none of the principal topics were omitted— In one instance the order of my arrangement was discomposed, much to my own satisfaction; for as it was a Subject upon which my instructions were to feel the pulse of this Government without committing my own, I was under some embarrassment how to introduce it— But it had an incidental connection with another Subject which I had classed in order before it, and as 383I was to disclose explicitly my Instructions on the first point (Florida) and to speak entirely from myself on the other (South America) I had separated them with an interval of two others between them— But in the midst of our discussion of the former, Lord Castlereagh himself introduced the latter, and more than compensated for the inroad upon my arrangement, by relieving me from the aukwardness of entering upon most delicate and difficult matter upon which I was to treat. I did not lose by this incident the clue of my alphabetical arrangement, which though in appearance whimsical, I found decidedly useful— I went into town immediately after breakfast, and was at Lord Castlereagh’s door at half past eleven—the hour that he had appointed for the meeting— I sent away the Carriage, with orders to come for me to Craven Street at four— I was detained, not five minutes in the Antichamber, where I saw a young man, I suppose a private Secretary but not Planta. Lord Castlereagh immediately received me in his Library— He began upon the dampness and foulness of the weather— Then enquired whether I resided in town— Said Lady Castlereagh had made enquiries for Mrs: Adams, but was informed we were still in the Country.— I enquired if he had any Accounts this morning from the Prince Regent, who is laid up at Brighton, with the Gout— He said the Prince was now free from Pain and recovering— But it had become at last after shifting about for several days, a regular attack; and as it had left him weak, his medical attendants had advised that Parliament, which is to sit on the first of February, should be opened by Commission, and that the Prince should remain ten days or a fortnight longer at Brighton, before coming to Town.— He said the Prince had exposed himself to the damp weather in going round with him, to shew him the place; (the new Pavilion at Brighton) and afterwards to the Queen, when she came. The Gout had been some days unsettled; but had finally fixed, and the attack while it lasted had been sharp— We now entered upon the subjects for which I had requested the interview, and I shall give the dialogue to the best of my recollection as it passed; distinguishing the speakers respectively by the initials of their names— A. I have observed by the Public papers that your Lordship has received the Ratification by the President of the United States, of the Commercial Convention concluded in July last— C. Yes—and the Ratifications may be exchanged in a few days . . . or . . . I believe they were exchanged there; at Washington. . . A. That was what I wished to enquire of your Lordship—having myself no advices from my Government, since the Ratification— C.—Yes—the Ratifications were exchanged there— A. At the time when that Convention was concluded, the Full-Powers of the American Plenipotentiaries were much more extensive than the objects upon which it was found the parties could then come to an agreement; and as my two Colleagues were shortened for time, and anxious to return to America; it was thought best to conclude what we could then adjust, and notice was given by us, that further proposals might afterwards be brought forward by me—for negotiation.— The British Plenipotentiaries told us that their powers would be terminated by the Convention then signed; and in case of a further Negotiation they did not know whether it would be committed to them. I then informed them, that I should not propose any thing further, without new Instructions from my Government, and in that case, should address myself through the regular channel of the Foreign Department— Since then I have received Instructions directing me to make proposals for arrangements which I presumed could be settled only in the form of a Treaty— Other proposals of negotiation had been made, in the course of my Correspondence here, during your Lordships absence in France, by Lord Bathurst; I wished therefore now to enquire, what are the Views of His Majesty’s Government in this respect— Whether they are disposed to enter upon a new Negotiation—and if they are whether they will consider the Full Power heretofore produced by my Colleagues and me as competent for concluding an additional Treaty; or will they expect me to produce a new Power— And whether I shall treat with the same British Plenipotentiaries with whom we treated before; or with your Lordship— C. Yes—I remember we thought it best then, for restoring harmony and good Understanding between the parties, to get along as far as we could at that time agree; and to postpone every thing, upon which the different views of the two sides precluded an agreement— Our dispositions are now the same—we have with the utmost sincerity the desire to preserve and cultivate Peace and Harmony with you— But what are the subjects upon which you would propose a further Negotiation? A— Several—the first and most important is that relating to Seamen—Impressment—A Subject which had heretofore been the greatest cause of the unfortunate differences between the two Countries; about which there is much anxiety in America, and to which the attention of the Government of the United States is yet strongly rivetted, as appears by the President’s last Message to Congress, in which he again recommends a law for confining the Navigation of American Vessels to American Seamen— C. Why, your Government is taking the right measures for removing 384the grounds of those differences, and I am glad to see it— By encouraging your own Seamen which is certainly a wise and proper policy— But it is a question to be considered, whether such measures as these tending to take away the cause of dissension, will not be more effectual as a practical remedy for the evil, than any arrangement which could be made by Treaty— The British Government, are and always have been ready and willing to discuss any proposal that can be offered, for an arrangement by Treaty; but the Views as to the Right, of the two Governments, are so opposite— The popular feeling is so strong, and so irritable, on your side in one direction, and on ours in the other, that while there is no practical operation of the inconvenience, perhaps it is not the best time, for any formal stipulation concerning it— A. There is another point of view, in which the present may be considered as the best time for an arrangement; as being a time, when the Passions on neither side will be interested to take part against it— A Time of Peace when the whole subject may be considered coolly, and no irritable feeling would mingle with the discussion— C. The public feeling on this subject is yet very keen— It will be better to wait for the effect of the full disclosure of the Policy of Your Government— It is a change from its policy heretofore, when foreign Seamen were rather invited and encouraged into your Service, and undoubtedly you had a very large body of British Seamen in your Ships— If the Law passes and is carried into effect, of confining your Navigation to your own Seamen, we shall have no occasion for taking our Men from your ships, because there will be none to take. We shall always be ready to make such regulations as may guard the exercise of our rights from abuses. A— The Policy of the Government of the United States cannot be said to be changed— They have not indeed heretofore excluded foreign Seamen from our Service, but they were never encouraged or invited into it— Whatever number of British Seamen there may have been it, were led to it by their own inclinations— C. At least your former Colleague Mr Gallatin told me that your Government had latterly determined to pursue the policy of encouraging your own Seamen— A. But, My Lord, even this may be counteracted by the British Government— Since the discharge of the British Navy, it has been alledged that great numbers of your Seamen, have gone into foreign Services— Many to the Russian; many to the American; I know not what foundation there may be for this; but it is notorious that you have vast numbers of Seamen out of employ, and I have received two official requisitions from you, to send home from London and Liverpool, destitute American Seamen, most of whom came from your naval service, and many of whom have no proofs of being Americans— The second Requisition came to me, without any reply to the Answer, I had given to the first— I concluded that your Lordship had not seen my answer— I stated in it that many of the distressed American Seamen, who were according to the Lord Mayor’s Representation, wandering about the Streets of London, had just been discharged from the British Naval Service, and had stronger claims for relief from the British than from the American Government— That others, had claims for small pensions from this Government, and if they went to America, were compelled to sell their annuities for two years purchase— I had represented that I thought, if those Persons were to be sent to America, Great-Britain ought to furnish them the means of receiving their Pensions there— I had also alledged that the Lord Mayor’s representation was in general terms—numbers of American Seamen, and that when I was required to send Americans home, they must be named, and some proof given that they are really Americans— C. I have not seen your Note on this subject; for it was received while I was in the Country— But certainly these are very fair, and proper subjects for consideration— I will attend to them— It was impossible that so large a body of men, as was discharged from the British Navy, amounting to Sixty or Seventy thousand, should be thrown at once out of employment, without some inconveniences— London and Liverpool being our two principal Sea-ports, an extraordinary proportion of them naturally resorted there; and for a time there were multitudes who could not find employment—many became burdensome upon the public. But commerce is now very flourishing; those People are gradually finding employment, and the incumbrance which they have occasioned was very temporary, and has nearly passed over— The note founded upon the Lord Mayor’s Representation was a circular to the foreign Ministers— And the statement from the Mayor of Liverpool was of a number of Americans who had become burdensome to the Parish— A.— Yes, My Lord, the number mentioned was twenty-six— I immediately wrote to the American Consul, requesting him to take measures for ascertaining who they were, and what their claims were as Americans— I have his answer— Of the twenty-six, sent by the Mayor to his Office, only nineteen presented themselves; and he had no means of compelling the attendance of the others— Of the nineteen, only five had any document of any sort, to shew that they were Americans.— It is obvious therefore that if I am required to send to the United States every Man who calls himself an American Seaman in distress, the chances would be that numbers of British Seamen might find their way there, contrary to the intentions of both Governments— C. I will attend to the subject; and take the sense of the Government upon it— As to the question respecting your Power; if you declare that your Government considers that heretofore produced by you, as yet in force, and you treat under Instructions from them, I should not suppose there would be any necessity for you to produce a new Power— A. The next subject, upon which I am directed to consult with His Majesty’s Government, relates to Canada; another source of disagreement heretofore; and which may be one 385of great and frequent animosities here after, unless guarded against by the vigilance, firmness and decidedly pacific dispositions of the two Governments— There are tendencies to continual dissensions, and even acts of hostility in that quarter, proceeding from three causes—the Indians—the temper of the British local authorities; and the British Armaments on the Lakes— The Post of Michillimackinac was surrendered, not immediately after the Peace; nor until late in the Summer, and some of the British Officers in Upper Canada, were so far from entering into the Spirit of their Government, which had in substance made a Peace for the Indians, that they took no small pains to instigate the Indians to a continuance of hostilities against the United States— The consequence was that it remained long doubtful whether the Indians in that quarter would accept the Peace that had been secured for them. Mr Monroe represented these Circumstances in a Letter to Mr Baker— I was instructed to repeat the representation here; and had interviews with Lord Liverpool and Lord Bathurst for that purpose— They both gave me the strongest assurances that the intentions of this Government were sincerely pacific, and its earnest wish had been that the Indians should agree to the Peace— That no detention of Michillimackinac had been authorised by its orders, and no instigation of the Indians against the United States had been warranted by it— The fort was surrendered in July, and as soon as the Indians found they would not be supported by Great-Britain in War, they manifested a readiness for Peace, and I believe it has been with the tribes in that direction generally accomplished. Other and more recent instances however of an unpleasant nature have occurred— A British Officer, pursued, took and carried away from the Territory of the United States a Deserter from his Corps— The Officer himself was afterwards arrested within the American Jurisdiction, tried; and owing to the absence of a principal witness, was convicted only of a Riot, and moderately fined— An Indian with a party trespassing on the property of an American Citizen, at Gros Isle, was killed in a boat, in the act of levelling his own musket, at the American— And although this happened on the American Territory, the British Commandant at Malden offered a reward of 400 dollars, to any person for apprehending the man, who had killed the Indian.— An American merchant Vessel upon Lake Erie has also been fired upon by a British armed Vessel.— But a Circumstance of still more importance is the increase of the British Armaments since the Peace, on the Canadian Lakes— Such Armaments on one side, render similar and counter-armaments indispensible on the other— Both Governments must thus be subjected to a heavy, and in time of Peace a useless expence; and every additional armament creates new and very dangerous incitements to irritation, and acts of hostility— The American Government anxious above all for the preservation of Peace, have authorised me to propose a reduction of the armaments upon the Lakes, on both sides— The extent of this reduction, the President leaves, at the pleasure of Great-Britain, observing, that the greater it is, the more it will conform to his preference, and that it would best of all suit the United States if the Armaments should be confined to what is necessary for the protection of the revenue— C. Does your Government mean to include in this proposition, the destruction of the ships already existing there? As to keeping a number of armed vessells, parading about upon the lakes, in time of Peace, it would be ridiculous, and absurd— There can be no motive for it, and every thing beyond what is necessary to guard against smuggling is calculated only to produce mischief— The proposition you make is very fair, and so far as it manifests pacific dispositions, I assure you will meet with the sincerest reciprocal Dispositions of this Government— I will submit the proposal to their Consideration— But you know, we are the weaker party there— Therefore it was that we proposed at Ghent, that the whole lakes, should belong to one party— All the shores—for then, armaments would not have been necessary— Then, there would have been a large and wide natural separation between the two Territories; and those, I think are the best, and most effectual to preserve Peace. A. But the proposition at Ghent to which we objected was, that the disarming should be all on one side— There was indeed afterwards intimated to us by the British Plenipotentiaries, an intention to make us a proposal, so fair and reasonable, that it was thought no objection could be made against it— We did suppose that it was this identical proposition, which I am now authorized to make— It was not however brought forward— Nor was any explanation given by the British Plenipotentiaries of what they had intended by their offer. My Instructions now do not explicitly authorize me to include in the agreement to keep up no armament, the destruction of the vessels already there; but if this Government assents to the Principle, there will be ample time to concert mutually all the details. What I could 386now agree to, would be to have no armed force, actually out upon the Lakes, and to build no new Vessels. C. It so happened that just at the close of the War, we were obliged to make extraordinary exertions there, and to build a number of new Vessels, to maintain our footing there. A— But it is the new Armaments, since the Peace, which have necessarily drawn the attention of my Government. C. You have so much the advantage of us, by being there, immediately on the spot, that you can always arm, in a shorter time than we can be prepared for defence. A— The stipulation to keep, or build no new armed force during the Peace, would therefore be in favour of Great-Britain; because, the very act of arming would then be an act of hostility. C. That is, there could be no arming until the War actually commenced; and then you would have such an advance of Time upon us by your position, that we should not stand upon an equal footing, for defence. A. Still the operation of the engagement, would be in favour of Great-Britain— We should have our hands tied until the moment of actual War— A State which it is impossible should suddenly arise, on our part— It is impossible that War should be commenced by us, without a previous State of things, which would give ample notice to this Country to be prepared— She might then have every thing in readiness to commence her armaments upon the Lakes, at the same moment with us, and we should be deprived of the advantage arising from our local position. C. Well—I will propose it to the Government for Consideration— A— At the other extremity of the United States, the Indians occur again, in an unpleasant manner— A certain Coll: Nicolls, undertook, after the Peace, to make a Treaty Offensive and defensive and a Treaty of Navigation and Commerce, with some runaway Indians, whom he chose to style the Creek Nation and he formally notified these Treaties to the Agent of the United States with the Creeks, adding that he should hear more of them when they should be ratified here— Mr Monroe complained of this conduct of Coll: Nicolls, in a Letter to Mr Baker— I was instructed to make the same complaint here— I mentioned it to Lord Bathurst, who in the most candid and explicit manner verbally, disavowed to me the proceedings of Nicolls— He said that Nicolls had made a pretended Treaty Offensive and defensive with the Indians, and had even brought some of the Indians; but that he, Lord Bathurst had answered that assuredly no such Treaty would be ratified or sanctioned by the Government— I had given my own Government information of this assurance, which I knew would give them the highest satisfaction— I mentioned the same affair in a Letter to Lord Bathurst, of which no written notice has been taken— Whether any more formal disavowal of Coll. Nicolls’s proceedings has been given, in answer to the complaint through Mr Baker, I do not know; but I speak of it now, because by the President’s Message, I perceive that the conduct of the Indians in that part of the United States, still threatens hostilities, and because there as in the more Northern parts, the Indians will certainly be disposed to tranquility and Peace, unless they have encouragement to rely upon the support of Great-Britain— C. I have no such Treaties as those you mention, among those that I am to carry down to Parliament. A— This affair has given the more concern to the Government of the United States, because they have received strong and confident intimations from various quarters, that there had been a Cession of Florida, by Spain to Great-Britain— C. As to that, I can set you at ease at once— There is not, and never has been the slightest foundation for it, whatsoever— It never has even been mentioned. A. Your Lordship knows that such rumours have been long in circulation, and that the fact has been positively and very circumstantially asserted in your own public Journals. C. Yes, but our public Journals are so addicted to lying!— No! if it is supposed that we have any little, trickish policy of thrusting ourselves in, there between you and Spain, we are very much misunderstood indeed— You shall find nothing little, or shabby, in our policy. We have no desire to add an inch of ground to our territories in any part of the world— We have as much as we know how to manage— There is not a spot of ground upon the globe that I would annex to our Territories, if it were offered to us to-morrow. A— What your views, in that respect may be generally, we do not think it our province to enquire, but we did think that with dominions so extensive and various as those of Great Britain she could not wish for such an acquisition as that of Florida, unless for purposes unfriendly to the United States, and hence it was that these rumours have given concern to the American Government— I am sure they will receive with much pleasure the assurance given me by your Lordship, that no such Cession has been made. C. None whatever. . . It has never been mentioned; and if it had, it would have been decisively declined by us.— Military positions may have been taken by us, during the War, of places which you had taken from Spain; but we never intended to keep them— Do you only observe the same Moderation— If we should find you hereafter pursuing a system of encroachment upon your neighbours, what we might do, defensively, is another Consideration. . . A. I do not precisely understand what your Lordship intends by this advice of moderation— The United States have no design of encroachment upon their neighbours, or of exercising any injustice towards Spain— C— You may be sure that Great-Britain has no design of acquiring any addition to her possessions there— Great-Britain has done every thing for Spain— We have saved, we have delivered her— We have restored her Government to her, and we had hoped that the result would have proved more advantageous to herself as well as more useful to the world than it has been— We are sorry that the Event, has not altogether answered our expectations— We lament the unfortunate situation of her internal Circumstances; owing to which we are afraid that she can neither exercise her own powers for the comfort and happiness of the Nation, nor avail herself of her resources for the effectual exertion of her Power— We regret this, but we have no disposition or desire to take advantage of this State of things to obtain 387from it any exclusive privilege for ourselves— In the unfortunate troubles of her Colonies in South-America, we have not only avoided to seek, but we have declined every exclusive indulgence or privilege to ourselves— We went even so far as to offer to take upon us that most unpleasant and thankless of all offices, that of mediating between the parties to those differences. We appointed a formal mission for that purpose, who proceeded to Madrid; but there the Court of Spain declined accepting our offer; and we have had the fortune of displeasing both the parties, by refusing to interfere in support of either— A.— The policy of the American Government, towards Spain, has been hitherto precisely the same— They have not indeed made any offer of their mediation, because the state of the relations between them and the Spanish Government neither warranted, nor admitted of such an offer— But they have observed the same system of impartial neutrality between the parties— They have sought no peculiar, or exclusive advantage for the United States, and I am happy to hear from your Lordship, that such is the policy of Great-Britain, as that of the United States may and probably will be influenced by it, and co-operate with it— C— I have always avowed it to be our policy, in Parliament. We have never acknowledged the Governments of the South-Americans, because that would not have comported with our views of neutrality. But we have never prohibited the commerce of our People with them, because that was what Spain had no right to require of us— Our plan in offering the mediation which Spain rejected was that the South-Americans should submit themselves to the Government of Spain, as Colonies, because we thought she had the right to authority over them, as the mother Country— But that she should allow them commerce with other Nations— Nothing exclusive to us—we neither asked nor could have accepted any exclusive privileges for ourselves— We have no little or contracted policy— But we proposed that Spain should allow a liberal, commercial intercourse, between her Colonies and other Nations, similar to that which we allow in our possessions in India. A. And what does your Lordship think will be the ultimate issue of this struggle in South-America? that Spain will subdue them, or that they will maintain their Independence? C. Every thing is so fluctuating in the Councils of Spain, and generally every thing is so dependent upon Events not to be calculated, that it is not possible to say what the result may be. Our policy must be founded upon the actual state of things, and be shaped according to Events as they may happen.— A. There is another Subject, not indeed for discussion upon a new Treaty, but relating to the Execution of that of Ghent, upon which my Instructions are very urgent. . . C. Stay. . . Let me take a minute of what we have been speaking about. . . There were . . . the Seamen-Impressment . . . and the Notes, on the distressed Seamen, now at London and Liverpool . . . Canada; and the proposal to disarm . . . Coll: Nicolls. . . There was something else, was there not?. . . A— Only my question, as to the Full-Power. . . C. Ah! Yes. . . (and after making the minute on the paper) As to what I have said to you with regard to Spain, and the situation of her internal affairs and the conduct of her Government, I have spoken with the most perfect freedom and openness; I wish you therefore to understand it as confidential; and if you report it to your Government, to give it as such. A. Certainly, My Lord, and I wish what I have said to you on the Subject, to be also received as confidential. . . The subject on which I wish now to urge the further Consideration of this Government, relates to the Slaves— There are three branches of it, which have formed points of discussion between the two Governments— First the Slaves carried away from the United States by the British Commanders, contrary, as the American Government holds to the express stipulation of the Treaty of Ghent— It was complained of by Mr Monroe to Mr Baker— I spoke of it to your Lordship, before you went to France— I afterwards addressed a Letter to you concerning it; to which I have received an answer from Lord Bathurst— It came to me at a time when I was confined by illness, and for several weeks could not write— I have not yet replied to it, but shall shortly. . . It seems indeed to intimate that this Government has taken its final determination, on the matter . . . but I hope it is not so . . . I hope they will give it further Consideration— It has given so much anxiety to my Government— It is urged so constantly and so earnestly in my Instructions—the language of the Treaty, appears to us so clear, and unequivocal—the violation of it in the carrying away of the Slaves so manifest; and the losses of property occasioned by it to our Citizens, is so considerable and so serious, that I cannot abandon the hope that you will give it further consideration, and ultimately to the United States, Satisfaction. C— I have not seen the Correspondence that has passed relating to it— I will have it looked up; and examine it. (he made a minute of it, on his paper.) A. There is a special Representation concerning eleven Slaves taken away from a Mr Downman, by the violation of a flag of truce sent ashore by Captain Barrie. I have also received from Lord Bathurst, an answer to this complaint, to which I shall reply— The answer states that the 388complaint was referred to Captain Barrie, to report upon it, and gives the substance of Captain Barrie’s Report.— It does not disprove any of the facts alledged by Mr Downman— But Captain Barrie was himself the person who sent the flag of truce, and responsible for the violation if it— As a general principle, it can scarcely be expected that Satisfaction for an injury can ever be obtained, if the report of the person upon whom it is charged is received as a conclusive answer to the complaint. C— I suppose the complaint itself was only the allegation of an individual; and naturally reference must be made to the officer complained of for his answer to the charge. A— The documents that I furnished in Downman’s case, did not consist of his allegations only— There are affidavit’s of several other persons— Taken indeed ex parte, because they could not be taken otherwise— But they are full, and strong to the points, both of the violation of the flag, and of the carrying away of the Slaves. C. I do not know how we could proceed otherwise; unless, if the matter were of sufficient importance, a Commissioner from each of the two Governments might be authorized to examine . . . but I have not seen the papers. . . I will look into them. A. The other point, concerning Slaves, relates to the charge contained in the Instructions from the American Secretary of State to the Plenipotentiaries at Ghent, that Sales had been made in the West Indies, of Slaves taken in the United States— C. I do not think it was possible— The law prohibits it expressly— A— I am not now speaking with regard to the fact, but respecting the allegation of it— On the publication of the Instructions, the British Plenipotentiaries, applied to those of the United States, for the Evidence in support of the charge— Admiral Cochrane addressed a Letter to Mr Monroe containing the same requisition— There was a Correspondence on the Subject, between Mr Monroe and Mr Baker, and it was noticed here in Parliament— As the charge itself had been made in the midst of the War, the American Government had not expected that it would be a subject of discussion after the Peace— And as it involved many circumstances of an unpleasant nature and irritating tendency, they would have preferred that as between the two Governments it should be by mutual consent laid aside, and nothing further said about it— At the same time they were ready to communicate such Evidence, as they could collect, of the fact; if that course should be preferred by this Government— I made the proposal of both alternatives last Summer to the Earl of Liverpool, who appeared to prefer that the Evidence should be produced— I have now received a considerable mass of it, and if your Lordship also thinks it the best course I will furnish copies of it— But I would rather repeat the proposal of dropping the subject altogether. C. So far as there may be any thing of an irritating Nature in it, we have no wish or intention to pursue the enquiry any farther— If the American Government, in the heat of War, and under the feelings of that State have advanced a charge upon our Officers, beyond what the proof of facts will bear them out, we have no thought or wish to carry the discussion of it into the State of Peace, and in that point of view would willingly dismiss it— As between the Governments therefore, we set it altogether aside; and assure you that it shall have no effect whatever on our friendly dispositions. But with regard to the fact, we are obliged to ask for the Evidence of it; because if established it affects the character of our officers, and the observance of our Laws— Perhaps it may be well, if you and Mr Hamilton, would go over the Evidence together— If the fact is ascertained, the Officers who have been guilty of it, should be punished; if otherwise it should be known for the vindication of their individual characters. A. In the charge, as made, by the American Secretary of State, no Individual Officer was named— In the Documents which I have received, several Officers are named—the Papers are voluminous, but I will have the copies of them made out as soon as possible. From one of the Papers it appears that Slaves taken as Prize, are actually sold. C. They are not sold as Slaves— By the Act of Parliament, all those that are taken in the Vessels that carry on the Slave Trade by contraband, are committed to the care of certain Conservators; but they are not Slaves A. The Documents that I possess may perhaps induce His Majesty’s Government, to pursue the investigation further. That which the American Government, can obtain, in the places where the Sales were alledged to have been made, must be imperfect. It has no controul over the local authorities; but for a full and satisfactory investigation, the co-operation, of both Governments is necessary— The mode suggested to me, and already proposed by Mr Monroe to Mr Baker was that the American Government would furnish lists of the Slaves, taken, during the War, and in most instances the names of the Vessels, into which they were taken; and then. . . C. We can shew what disposal was made of them. Yes. I see no objection to that course. A. Another subject which I barely mention now, is that concerning the Fisheries— I left here a day or two since a Note in reply to one from Lord Bathurst, received while I was confined, and unable to write. C. I have received your Note and read it last Evening. A. I speak of it, because there was in Lord Bathurst’s Note a proposal to negotiate 389on this subject. C. Yes. . . We adhere to our Construction and Understanding in regard to the Treaty; because it involves our rights of territorial jurisdiction. But we do not wish you to be prevented from fishing, and shall readily enter into arrangements on this point.—* A. I have been requested to obtain authenticated copies, of certain papers in the Colonial Office— The Commission and Instructions issued to Arthur Dobbs as Governor of North-Carolina, some time before the American Revolution. C. Write me a private Note, mentioning what the Papers are, and I will speak to Lord Bathurst about it— A. Mr Smith, has lately arrived here, and will be desirous of being presented at Court, when the Prince Regent returns to town. Will it be necessary to make a written application for that purpose? C. No! Bring him on the first levee-day with you to Carlton House. A. There may perhaps be other American Gentlemen, desirous of being presented. Will any application be necessary for them? C— None at-all. Bring them with you to the levee, and you may be always sure that any person presented by you will be well received.— To this I made my acknowledgments and took my leave, after a conference of nearly two hours. I walked to the Westminster Library, N 44. Jermyn Street, paid my annual subscription there of two guineas, and enquired for several books and Reviews; all of which were out, excepting two small Volumes of Foster’s Essays which I took with me. (* A. I wrote your Lordship a Note, respecting, a discrimination made in the Ports of Ireland, between British and American Vessels, in respect to the number of Passengers they are allowed to take. I received a Note from you in answer; to which I replied— C. Probably the regulation to which you refer may have been adopted before the Commercial Convention was concluded. We might however question the application of it to the case, as the Convention was not intended to interfere with any restrictions under which we may think proper to prevent emigration from Ireland. A. I hope I have not been and shall not be understood as objecting to the regulation at-all, as a restriction upon emigration— That must be entirely discretionary with the British Government. We have nothing to say about it— But it is the discrimination between the shipping of the two Countries, of which I complained— The allowance to British vessels to take five Passengers, for the same tonnage, which in American vessels is limited to two— I presume that an order to the Port-Officers, would remove the distinction. C. I dont know that— It may be made by act of Parliament— And we might question your right to consider Passengers, as Articles of Merchandize.— We may regard the discrimination itself, as a mode of restriction upon emigration. You do not want our people. A.— Not at-all. We increase fast enough, by the progress of our own native population. C. No! Our Seamen, and our People . . . you really do not want them; and when they do go, you get only the worst part of them. A. Why, in that case, My Lord, you ought to be much obliged to us, for relieving you from them. C. I don’t know . . . however, we shall see what there is to be done.) N.B. This part of the Conference immediately followed that relating to the fisheries. I remained at Craven Street till four O’Clock— Sent Richard to engage five tickets at Covent Garden Theatre to see the Midsummer Night’s dream, next Monday. Read for the first time two or three Speeches of Mr Charles Phillips, a young Irish Orator, and a Criticism upon one of them, from the Edinburgh Review. Home about six O’Clock— Walked from Kew-Bridge— In the Evening I read part of Foster’s Essay, on a Man’s writing Memoirs of himself.— Settled the account of Messer and Page, the Coachmakers, at the Office.