John Quincy Adams Digital Diary

14. VI— This morning was occupied in reading over the Letters which I have received from my father and the enclosures in them. The Carpenters finished their work in my Cabinet, where they have been nearly a week employed in opening two side windows, and closing two at the end. Mr Sanders and Mr Bryden came out before I left home— A young Frenchman named Sabatier also came to ask me for Letters of Recommendation to America— He is a carver and engraver, and wishes to go and settle in that Country. I went into London, and as I had anticipated found a Note from Lord Bathurst, appointing two O’Clock this day to see me at Downing-Street— It was then just two, and I went immediately to his Office, and had an interview with him of about an hour— I said that having lately received despatches from the American Secretary of State respecting several objects of some importance to the relations between the two Countries, my first object in asking to see him had been to enquire whether he had received from Mr Baker a Communication of the Correspondence between Mr Monroe and him, relative to the surrender of Michillimakinac, to the proceedings of Coll: Nicolls in the Southern part of the United States; and to the warning given by the Captain of a British armed vessel, to certain American fishing vessels to withdraw from the fishing grounds to the distance of twenty leagues from the Coast— He said that he had received all these papers from Mr Baker about four days ago, that an answer with regard to the warning of the fishing vessels had immediately been sent; but on the other subjects there had not been time to examine the papers and prepare the answers— I asked him if he could without inconvenience state the substance of the answer that had been sent— He said, certainly— It had been that as on the one hand Great-Britain could not permit the vessels of the United States to fish within the Creeks, and close upon the shores of the British territories, so on the other hand it was by no means her intention to interrupt them in fishing any where in the open sea, or without the territorial jurisdiction—a marine league from the shore— And therefore that the warning given in the place stated in the case referred to was unauthorised. I said that the particular act being disavowed, I trusted the British Government before adopting any final determination upon the Subject, would estimate in candour and in the Spirit of amity which my own Government was anxious to have prevailing in our relations with this Country, the Considerations which I was instructed to present in support of the right of the People of the United States to fish on the whole Coast of North-America, which they have uniformly enjoyed from the first settlement of the Country. That I should in the course of a few days address a Letter to him on the Subject. He said that they would give due attention to the Letter that I should send him, but that Great-Britain had explicitly manifested her intention upon the Subject— That there was a great deal of feeling on it in this Country, as I doubtless knew, and their own fishermen considered it as an excessive hardship to be supplanted by American fishermen even upon the very shores of the British dominions— I said that those whose sensibilities had been thus excited, had probably not considered the question of right, in the point of view in which it had been regarded by us. That the question of right had not been discussed at the negotiation of Ghent— That the British Plenipotentiaries had given a notice that the British Government would not hereafter allow the People of the United States to fish and cure and dry fish within the exclusive British territorial Jurisdiction in America, without an equivalent. That the American Plenipotentiaries had given notice in return, that the American Government considered all the rights to the fisheries on the whole Coast of North America, as sufficiently secured by their enjoyment of them from the settlement of the Country by them, and by the recognition of it in the Treaty of Peace of 1783. That they did not think any new stipulation necessary for a further confirmation of the right— No part of which did they consider as having been forfeited by the War— It was perfectly obvious that the Treaty of Peace of 1783 was not one of those ordinary Treaties which by the usages of Nations were considered as annulled by a subsequent war between the same parties. It was a Treaty of partition between two parts of one Nation agreeing thenceforth to be separated into two distinct Sovereignties— The Conditions upon which this was done constituted essentially the Independence of the United States, and the preservation of all the fishing rights which they had always enjoyed, over the whole Coast of North America, was among the most important of them— This was no concession no grant on the part of Great-Britain which could be annulled by a War— There had been in the same Treaty of 1783. a right recognized in British subjects to navigate the Mississippi— This right the British Plenipotentiaries at Ghent had considered a just claim of Great-Britain, notwithstanding the war that had intervened— The American Plenipotentiaries, to remove all future discussion upon both points had offered to agree to an article expressly confirming both the rights— In declining this an Offer had been made on the part of Great-Britain, stipulating to negotiate in future for the renewal of both rights, for an equivalent. This was declined by the American Plenipotentiaries because its only effect would have been an implied admission, that both the rights were annulled— There was therefore no Article concerning them in the Treaty, and the question as to the right was not discussed. I now stated the ground upon which the Government of the United States considered the right as subsisting and unimpaired— It would be for the British Government ultimately to determine how far this reasoning was to be admitted as correct. 319There were also considerations of policy and expediency to which I hoped the British Government would give suitable attention before they came to a final decision upon this point— I thought it my duty to suggest them; that they might not be overlooked— The subject was viewed by my Countrymen as highly important, and I was profoundly anxious to omit nothing which might possibly have an influence to promote friendly sentiments between the two Nations, or to guard against the excitement of others.— These fisheries afforded the means of subsistence to multitudes of people, who were destitute of any other— They also afforded the means of remittance to G. Britain, in payment for articles of her manufacture exported to America— It was well understood to be the policy of Great-Britain that no unnecessary encouragement or stimulus should be given to manufactures in the United States, which would diminish the importations from those of Great-Britain— But by depriving the fishermen of the United States of this source of subsistence, the result must be to throw them back upon the Country, and drive them to the resort of manufacturing for themselves—while on the other hand, it would cut off the means of making remittances in payment for the manufactures of Great-Britain— I might add that the people in America whose interests would be immediately and severely affected by this exclusion, were in the part of the Country which had always manifested of late years most friendly dispositions towards Great-Britain— This might perhaps be less proper for me to suggest than for a British Cabinet to consider— To me the interests of all my Countrymen, in every part of the United States was the same. I could know no distinction between them. But upon a point where I was contending for what we conceived a strict right, I thought it best to urge every consideration which might influence the other party to avoid a collision upon it— I would even urge considerations of humanity— I would say that fisheries, the nature of which was to multiply the means of subsistence to mankind, were usually considered by civilized Nations as under a sort of special Sanction— It was a common practice to leave them uninterrupted even in time of war— He knew for instance that the Dutch had been for centuries in the practice of fishing upon the Coasts of this Island, and that they were not interrupted in this occupation even in ordinary times of war— It was to be inferred from this that to interrupt a fishery which had been enjoyed for ages was itself an indication of more than ordinary animosity— He said that no such disposition was entertained by the British Government— That to shew the liberality which they had determined to exercise in this case he would assure me that the Instructions which he had given to the Officers on that Station had been, not even to interrupt the American fishermen, who might have proceeded to those Coasts within the British Jurisdiction, for the present year—to allow them to complete their fares, but to give them notice, that this privilege could be no longer allowed by Great-Britain, and that they must not return the next year— It was not so much the fishing, as the drying and curing on the shores that had been followed with bad consequences— It happened that our fishermen by their proximity, could get to the fishing Stations sooner in the Season than the British, who were obliged to go from Europe, and who upon arriving there found all the fishing places, and drying and curing places preoccupied— This had often given rise to disputes and quarrels between them, which in some instances had proceeded even to blows— It had even disturbed the Peace among the inhabitants on the shores; and for several years before the war, the complaints to this Government had been so great and so frequent that it had been impossible not to pay regard to them— I said that I had not heard of any such complaints before—but that as to the disputes arising from the competition of the fishermen, they could surely be easily made a subject of regulation, by the Government, and as to the Peace of the Inhabitants there could be no difficulty in securing that; as the liberty enjoyed by the American fishermen, was in all settled and inhabited places, expressly subjected to the consent of the inhabitants, and by agreement with them— I then adverted to the other topics—Michillimakinac—Bois Blan—and Coll. Nicolls— I asked him if he had any account of the delivery of the Post— He said he had no doubt whatever; but that it had been long since delivered up— But he had no late despatches from the Canadian Government— Some delay had occurred by the change of the Governor General; but Sir George Prevost’s leaving Quebec to come to Europe, and consequently by General Drummond’s coming from upper Canada to Quebec— As to the indisposition manifested by the Indians to accept the Peace offered by the United States, he regretted it very much— It had been the sincere wish and intention of the British Government that the Peace with the Indians should immediately follow that agreed to by this Country, the British Officers there had been formally instructed to make known to them the Peace which had been concluded, and to advise them to take the benefit of it— As to Coll: Nicolls I said that the American Government had been peculiarly concerned at the proceedings of that Officer, because they appeared marked with unequivocal characters of hostility— Why, said Lord Bathurst to tell you the truth, Coll: Nicolls, is I believe a man of activity and Spirit, but a very wild fellow— He did make and send over to me a Treaty Offensive and defensive with the Indians, and he is now come over here and has brought over some of those Indians 320I sent for answer that he had no authority whatever to make a Treaty offensive and defensive with the Indians, and that this Government would make no such Treaty. I have sent him word that I could not see him upon any such project— The Indians are here in great distress indeed; but we shall only furnish them with the means of returning home, and advise them, to make their terms with the United States as well as they can— Perceiving that I had noticed his declaration that he had declined seeing Coll. Nicolls, he said that perhaps he should see him upon the general subject of his transactions but that he had declined seeing him in regard to his Treaty with the Indians— I then observed that Mr Monroe had also sent me his Letter to Mr Baker concerning the Island of Bois Blanc. He said, it seemed merely a question of fact; whether the Island had been in the possession of the British at the Commencement of the late War, or not— He did not know how that was, but he thought it could not be difficult to ascertain; and it was altogether of very little importance. I then asked him if he could inform me, when Mr Bagot would probably embark for the United States— He laughed and said he believed he must refer me to the man midwife— They had expected Mrs Bagot would be confined about this time, and to be ready to go early in October— I said that I had asked the question now, because by a late Letter from Mr Baker to the American Secretary of State, it appeared that his powers in relation to the execution of the Treaty of Peace were less extensive than the Government of the United States had understood they were; which circumstance had made me more solicitous for the departure of Mr Bagot— He said there would be no delay that could possibly be avoided.— After this conference I went to the engraver Silvester’s in the Strand.— Left the Seal, for an alteration.— As I was returning to Charles Street, I met the Sardinian Minister, Count St: Martin d’Aglie, in the Street— He says that the Treaty of Peace with France is signed— That France will retain her boundaries of 1789. without dismemberment only restoring to his king, what had been taken from him by the Treaty of Paris of May 1814— He says that there is a political fanaticism prevailing in Germany of which an association calling themselves friends of virtue has been the consequence— They were the great declaimers for the dismemberment of France; but it was not sufficient to desire a thing; it must also be considered what was practicable— I left Charles Street, about half past four, and reached home at six. Mr Sanders and Mr Bryden dined with us; and our Sons John and Charles were at home for a half holiday from school— They returned in the Evening.