John Quincy Adams Digital Diary

1. IV. This morning I paid a visit to the British Plenipotentiaries, and to Mrs Goulburn— I did not however see her; but only her husband— Lord Gambier and Dr Adams, with Mr Baker, went yesterday to Bruxelles, to return on Saturday. Mr Goulburn told me that after having prepared their note in reply to ours, from the great importance of the subject, they had thought best to transmit it to their Government for approbation before they sent it in to us— He said he expected their messenger this Evening, and I enquired whether he expected to receive by him the answer to their last reference— He said that would depend on the time which it took their dispatch to arrive in England; but he thought it more probable that the answer would come next Sunday. That their Messengers came regularly twice a week; on Thursdays and Sundays— I told him I hoped his Government would reconsider some parts of their former propositions, before they sent their final instruction— He did not think it probable; and I found the more I conversed with him, the more the violence and bitterness of his Passion against the United States disclosed itself. His great point in support of the Indian boundary, was its necessity for the security of Canada.— He said that the United States had manifested the intention and the determination of conquering Canada— That “excepting us,” he believed it was the astonishment of the whole world, that Canada had not been conquered at the very out-set of the War— That nothing had saved it but the excellent dispositions and military arrangements of the Governor, who commanded there— That in order to guard against the same thing in future it was necessary to make a barrier against our settlements, upon which neither party should encroach. That the Indians were but a secondary object; but that as being the allies of Great-Britain, she must include them, as she made Peace with other Powers, including Portugal, as her ally— That the proposition that we should stipulate not to arm upon the Lakes, was made with the same purpose—the security of Canada— He could not see that there was any thing humiliating in it— That the United States could never be in any danger of invasion from Canada— The disproportion of force was too great— But Canada must always be in the most imminent danger of invasion from the United States, unless she was guarded by some such stipulations as they now demanded— That it could be nothing to the United States to agree not to arm upon the Lakes; since they never had actually done it before the present War— Why should they object to disarming there, where they had never before had a gun floating? I answered that the Conquest of Canada had never been an object of the War on the part of the United States. That Canada had been invaded by us, in consequence of the War, as they themselves had invaded many parts of the United-States. It was an effect, and not a Cause of the War— That the American Government never had declared the intention of conquering Canada— He referred to Hull’s Proclamation— I answered that the Government was not answerable for that; any more than the British Government was answerable for Admiral Cochrane’s Proclamations which had been disavowed— He said that the American Government had not disavowed Hull’s Proclamation; and that no Proclamation of Admiral Cochrane’s had been disavowed by the British Government.— I replied that the American Government had never been called upon either to avow or disavow Hull’s Proclamation; but that I had seen in a printed Statement of the debates in in the House of Commons that Lord Castlereagh had been called upon to say whether Admiral Cochrane’s Proclamation had been authorized or not, and had answered that it was not. He said that Lord Castlereagh had been asked whether a Proclamation of Admiral Cochrane’s, encouraging the negroes to revolt; had been authorized by the Government, and had answered in the negative; that is that no proclamation, encouraging the negroes to revolt had been authorized—but the Proclamation of Admiral Cochrane as referred to gave no such encouragement; there was nothing about negroes in it— It merely offered employment or a settlement in the British Colonies to such persons as might be disposed to leave the United States— I referred him to the term free, used in connection with that of settlements, and observed that it was true the word negroes was not used in it, but that no person in America could mistake its meaning— That it was unquestionably intended to the apply to the negroes, and that the practice of many of their naval commanders corresponded with it— That it was known some of them under such inducements had taken away blacks, who had afterwards been sold in the West-India Islands— Upon this he manifested some apparent agitation, and said that he could undertake to deny in the most unqualified terms— That the character of British naval Officers was universally known; their generosity and humanity could not be contested; and besides, that since the Act of Parliament, of 1811. the act of selling any man for a Slave, unless real Slaves from one British Island to another was felony without benefit of clergy. I replied that without contesting the character of any class of People generally, it was certain there would be in all Classes, individuals, capable of committing actions, of which others would be ashamed— That at a great distance from the eye and controul of the Government, acts were often done, with impunity, which would be severely punished nearer home— That the facts I had stated to him, were among the objects which we were instructed to present for Consideration, if the Negotiation should proceed, and he might in that case find it more susceptible of proof then he was aware— He thought it impossible; but that it was one of those charges against their officers, of which there were many, originating only in the spirit of hostility and totally destitute of foundation— With respect to 142the Indian allies I remarked that there was no analogy between them and the case of Portugal— That the stipulation which might be necessary for the protection of Indians, situated within the boundaries of the United States, who had taken the British side in the War, was rather in the nature of an amnesty, than of a provision for allies— It resembled more the case of Subjects who in cases of invasion, sometimes took part with the enemy, as had sometimes occurred to G. Britain in Ireland— He insisted that the Indians must be considered as Independent Nations, and that we ourselves made Treaties with them;—and acknowledged boundaries of their Territories— I said that wherever they would form settlements and cultivated Lands their possessions were undoubtedly to be respected, and always were respected by the United States. That some of them had become civilized in a considerable degree, the Cherokees for example, who had permanent habitations and a state of property like our own. But the greater part of the Indians could never be prevailed upon to adopt this mode of life—their habits, and attachments, and prejudices were so averse to any settlement that could not reconcile themselves to any other condition than that of wandering hunters. It was impossible for such People ever to be said to have Possessions— Their only right upon Land was a right to use it as hunting-grounds, and when those Lands where they hunted, became necessary or convenient for the purposes of settlement, the system adopted by the United States was by amicable arrangement with them, to compensate them for renouncing the right of hunting upon them, and for removing to remoter regions better suited to their purposes and mode of life— This system of the United States was an improvement upon the former practice of all European Nations, including the British. The original settlers of New-England had set the first example of this liberality towards the Indians, which was afterwards followed by the founder of Pennsylvania. Between it, and taking the Lands for nothing, or exterminating the Indians who had used them there was no alternative— To condemn vast regions of territory, to perpetual barrenness and Solitude, that a few hundred Savages might find wild beasts to hunt upon it was a species of game-Law, that a Nation descended from Britons would never endure— It was as incompatible with the moral as with the physical nature of things— If Great-Britain meant to preclude forever the People of the United States from settling and cultivating those Territories she must not think of doing it by a Treaty— She must formally undertake and accomplish their utter extermination— If the Government of the United States should ever submit to such a stipulation which I hoped they would not, all its force, and all that of Britain combined with it, would not suffice to carry it long into execution— It was opposing a feather to a torrent. The Population of the United States in 1810. passed seven Millions— At this hour it undoubtedly passed eight— As it continued to increase in such proportions, was it in human experience or in human power to check its progress by a bond of paper purporting to exclude posterity from the natural means of subsistence which they would derive from the cultivation of the soil? Such a Treaty instead of closing the old sources of dissension would only open new ones. A War thus finished would immediately be followed by another, and Great-Britain would ultimately find that she must substitute the project of exterminating the whole American People, to that of opposing against them her Barrier of Savages.— What, said Mr Goulburn, is it then in the inevitable nature of things that the United States must conquer Canada?— “No”— “But what security then can Great-Britain have for her Possession of it?” If Great-Britain does not think a liberal and amicable course of policy towards America would be the best security, as it certainly would, she must rely upon her general strength, upon the superiority of her power in other parts of her relations with America; upon the power which she has upon another element to indemnify herself, by sudden impression upon American interests, more defenceless against her superiority, and in their amount far more valuable than Canada ever was or ever will be— He recurred again to our superior force, and to the necessity of providing against it— He said that in Canada, they never took any of the Indian Lands, and the Government (meaning the Provincial Government) was prohibited even from granting them— That there were among the Indians, very civilized People, and there was particularly one whom he knew, Norton, who commanded some of those engaged with them in this War, and who was a very intelligent and well-informed man— That this removing of the Indians from their Lands to others, was the very thing they complained of— That it drove them over into their Provinces and made them encroach upon the Indians in their Provinces— This was a new idea to me; I told him I had never heard any complaint of this kind before; and I supposed a remedy for it, would very easily be found— He made no reply, and seemed as if in the pressure for an argument he had advanced more than he was inclined to maintain— It was the same with regard 143to the proposal that we should keep no armed force on or near the Lakes of Canada. He did not admit there was any thing humiliating or unusual in it; but he evaded repeatedly answering the question how he or the English Nation would feel if the proposition were made to them of binding themselves by such a Stipulation— I finally said that if he did not feel that there was any thing dishonourable to the party, submitting to such terms, it was not a subject susceptible of argument— I could assure him that we and our Nation would feel it to be such— That such stipulations were indeed often extorted from the weakness of a vanquished enemy; but they were always felt to be dishonourable, and had certainly occasioned more Wars than they had ever prevented— After changing the subject of the Conversation to the pictures, which we and they had drawn at the Lottery, I took my leave and returned home— In reflecting upon it I remark 1. The inflexible determination to adhere to the Indian Boundary and Barrier. 2dly. The avowal of Cochrane’s proclamation to the negroes, and the explanation of Lord Castlereagh’s disavowal. 3. The bitterness, and rancour against the Americans, and the Jealousy at their increasing strength and population. 4. The irritability at the statement of facts, relative to the sale of the Blacks, enticed away; and at the comparison between their employing our Indians against us, and Irish Subjects, aiding a French invader— Goulburn is personally the most inveterate of the three Plenipotentiaries, and the most in the Confidence of his Government.— We had a large Company of Ladies and Gentlemen to dinner— The Intendant of the Department of the Scheldt,Count D’Hane de Steenhuyse and his Lady—Mr D’hane Dons his Son, and Lady, Mr Van Pottelsberghe, de la Poterie, and his Lady, the Intendant’s only daughter, Captain Constant D’Hane, another Son, Mr: and Madame de Meulemeester Van Aken, Mr and Madame Meulemeester, Meulemeester. Mr: and Madame Greban and Mr: and Madame Van Aken—The Comte de Lens, Mayor of the City—Mr Goesin Verhaeghe, his first adjoint, Mr: Cornelissen, Mr Canar, Mr Charles Meulemeester, and Messrs: Shaler Todd and Irving— We sat down at table, 30 persons— We had a band of music in the room adjoining our dining-Hall; who performed at intervals during the dinner time and all the Evening— Our Garden was illuminated with variegated coloured lamps, and after dinner we walked in it, half an hour with the Ladies— The Intendant left us about 8 in the Evening to go and examine his dispatches. All the rest of the Company remained and we spent the Evening at Cards. I played with the Intendants Lady, Madame Meulemeester and Mr Cornelissen— The party broke up about Midnight, and after they were gone, Mr Clay won from me, at a game of all fours the picture of an old woman that I had drawn as a prize in the Lottery of Pictures, in which we had all taken tickets— He also won from Mr Todd the bunch of flowers, which Mr Russell had drawn, and which Todd had won from Mr Russell.